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  #16  
Old 03-03-2008, 11:56 AM
David Clifford's Avatar
David Clifford David Clifford is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glos View Post
After removing the 100lbs for the CS prop and pods, the plane still is 100 lbs more than average. The injected engine is only 15 to 18 lbs heavier than the non injected variants. Something else has contributed to the weight.

What filler did you use on the glass skins?
Add in the two A/P servo's, three linear actuators for various unneeded/overkill add-ons, heavy nose wheel retract system, a lot of unused added weight from modifying the canopy for side tilt to forward tilt, then back again, heavy canard cover, dual Oddessy batteries, sensors and monitors for just about everything. Had to modify and add to the featherlite cowling, which caused more fill than if it were stock, to fit the EXP engine, and the remote oil filter mount system with two additional -6 AN fire sleeved Aeroquip hoses,,,,,,it all adds up to an overweight plane. Hopefully those that read this will realize that all those little added axtras here and there that you decide to "fix" or "improve" on the original per-plans design REALLY add up in the end. We used the standard west system for the fill and most of it got sanded back off, but more attention to detail during the build would have cut back on the fill used. Lots of little "improvements" insisted on by the former partner also resulted in additional weight.
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  #17  
Old 03-03-2008, 12:27 PM
brendanw brendanw is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

As another reference point, we just did the W&B on our Cozy MK IV a few weeks ago using digital race car scales. 592 on the right, 591 on the left and 1 on the nose - 1184 total.

Things we have in common with yours:
- electric noselift
- electric elevator trim
- autopilot servos
- Full round of steam gauges with a Garmin stack (audio panel, 430, SL30, x-ponder) for backup
- sensors and monitors for just about everything
- remote oil filter mount system with 2 add'l hoses
- used West System for micro fill

Things we dont have in common with yours:
- wheel pants (not yet anyway)
- electric speed brake (we're manual for now)
- constant speed prop (Catto FP)
- fuel injection (we have an Ellison throttle body)
- dual batteries
- baggage pods
- linear actuators for various unneeded/overkill add-ons
- unused added weight from modifying the canopy for side tilt to forward tilt, then back again
- heavy canard cover
- modify and add to the featherlite cowling

Last edited by brendanw : 03-03-2008 at 12:32 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-03-2008, 02:03 PM
neverquit's Avatar
neverquit neverquit is offline
G.Norman
 
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Default Re: The Weigh In

Anyone know what the "glass only weight" should roughly be?
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  #19  
Old 03-03-2008, 02:36 PM
Glos Glos is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

The 11xx's seem to be more typical of the average Mark VI. I must agree with David that when in the build stage, think twice about everything that adds weight.

For the last few months I have been compiling data on weights from volunteers. This has dried up and I will soon add the data from the CSA members list but this does not have the detail we should be looking for so I will have to make a notation.

If anyone wants to add their plane to the list you can contact me at
rglos721@comcast.net

Attached is what I have compiled so far. It is not exactly a science project
but it is interesting to look at. Scroll down and you will see all the "add in weights on parts"

I have added Brendens plane and this one to the list as the data was made available publically, I hope you don't mind.
Attached Files
File Type: xls Canard Weights II.xls (25.5 KB, 249 views)
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  #20  
Old 03-03-2008, 03:24 PM
David Clifford's Avatar
David Clifford David Clifford is offline
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Location: Howell, Michigan 48843
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Default Re: The Weigh In

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendanw View Post
As another reference point, we just did the W&B on our Cozy MK IV a few weeks ago using digital race car scales. 592 on the right, 591 on the left and 1 on the nose - 1184 total.

Things we have in common with yours:
- electric noselift
- electric elevator trim
- autopilot servos
- Full round of steam gauges with a Garmin stack (audio panel, 430, SL30, x-ponder) for backup
- sensors and monitors for just about everything
- remote oil filter mount system with 2 add'l hoses
- used West System for micro fill

Things we dont have in common with yours:
- wheel pants (not yet anyway)
- electric speed brake (we're manual for now)
- constant speed prop (Catto FP)
- fuel injection (we have an Ellison throttle body)
- dual batteries
- baggage pods
- linear actuators for various unneeded/overkill add-ons
- unused added weight from modifying the canopy for side tilt to forward tilt, then back again
- heavy canard cover
- modify and add to the featherlite cowling
I would like to do a weight in with a good set of digital scales to verify what we got on the platform scale. I have no idea just how accurate the scale was. A 5% over reading could clear up a lot of that extra weight. I will try a little harder to locate a set of racing scales to beg, borrow, or steal.
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  #21  
Old 03-03-2008, 07:23 PM
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mplafleur mplafleur is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Clifford View Post
I would like to do a weight in with a good set of digital scales to verify what we got on the platform scale. I have no idea just how accurate the scale was. A 5% over reading could clear up a lot of that extra weight. I will try a little harder to locate a set of racing scales to beg, borrow, or steal.
I think that's a good idea.
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  #22  
Old 03-07-2008, 10:20 AM
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David Clifford David Clifford is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

Thane did an Excell spread sheet on the W/B and its now obvious that the dual Oddessy batteries we mounted in the nose to counter the added weight of the engine installation will have to be moved back to the firewall. Thane and I have also discussed the possibility/probability that our weigh-in numbers are not accurate and we will re-weigh the plane with a "real" set of scales. I will try to find a complete set, but will probably end up with just one,,,,shifting it from wheel to wheel with risers under the other wheels to keep it level.
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  #23  
Old 03-07-2008, 02:20 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

Quote:
end up with just one,,,,shifting it from wheel to wheel with risers under the other wheels to keep it level.
Try repeating the positions and see how often you get the same weight. If you're looking for accuracy, I think separate scales is the way to go and worth the expense / effort.

When I did my W&B I kept the scales for well over a week. I must have done 20 weighings - 5 of each of 4 different configurations. i.e with pilot / with upholstery / with fuel / without turbo etc. etc. Even with three scales, I had a tough time getting any two weighings close enough to be believable. I only trusted the data when I had three weighings of the same configuration that all came within 1% of each other.
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  #24  
Old 03-07-2008, 04:12 PM
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David Clifford David Clifford is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade View Post
Try repeating the positions and see how often you get the same weight. If you're looking for accuracy, I think separate scales is the way to go and worth the expense / effort.

When I did my W&B I kept the scales for well over a week. I must have done 20 weighings - 5 of each of 4 different configurations. i.e with pilot / with upholstery / with fuel / without turbo etc. etc. Even with three scales, I had a tough time getting any two weighings close enough to be believable. I only trusted the data when I had three weighings of the same configuration that all came within 1% of each other.
It should not make any difference if you are only using one scale(so long as it is accurate). The scale you are reading under a wheel has no idea if the other wheels are on a riser or another scale,,,,,,,, it still should read the same,,,,or am I missing something??
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Donation due: 12/2013
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  #25  
Old 03-07-2008, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: The Weigh In

what I think you might be missing is that every time you move the plane, things end up just a little bit different. At least that was my experience. I had to redo the calcs over and over before I got a set that matched, and that's without moving the plane. Move it, climb in and out, and try again next day and the figures would be different. Don't even think about doing it with the hangar door open.
Maybe it was a full moon lifting the weight up a bit...
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  #26  
Old 03-10-2008, 08:48 AM
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Default Re: The Weigh In

John, aside from the racoons, mice, or gremlins jumping on your plane, did you have any changes in temp when you were doing it? The change in temp of your floor will change the scales.
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  #27  
Old 03-10-2008, 09:58 AM
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mplafleur mplafleur is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

The doors are closed and stuffed with insulation, (It is winter out) and the furnace keeps it quite toasty inside. Robin was complaining yesterday that it is warmer inside the pole barn than inside the house. No temperature swings.
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  #28  
Old 03-10-2008, 12:17 PM
argoldman argoldman is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

Quote:
Originally Posted by mplafleur View Post
The doors are closed and stuffed with insulation, (It is winter out) and the furnace keeps it quite toasty inside. Robin was complaining yesterday that it is warmer inside the pole barn than inside the house. No temperature swings.

Sounds warm.

One thing to consider is to be very aware of the drafts that may be created by the furnace. If it is forced air type, turn it off while weighing. Air flow over and around the wings may change your values (after all that is what makes these constructions fly)
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  #29  
Old 05-28-2010, 05:32 PM
brendanw brendanw is offline
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Default Re: The Weigh In

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendanw View Post
As another reference point, we just did the W&B on our Cozy MK IV a few weeks ago using digital race car scales. 592 on the right, 591 on the left and 1 on the nose - 1184 total.

Things we have in common with yours:
- electric noselift
- electric elevator trim
- autopilot servos
- Full round of steam gauges with a Garmin stack (audio panel, 430, SL30, x-ponder) for backup
- sensors and monitors for just about everything
- remote oil filter mount system with 2 add'l hoses
- used West System for micro fill

Things we dont have in common with yours:
- wheel pants (not yet anyway)
- electric speed brake (we're manual for now)
- constant speed prop (Catto FP)
- fuel injection (we have an Ellison throttle body)
- dual batteries
- baggage pods
- linear actuators for various unneeded/overkill add-ons
- unused added weight from modifying the canopy for side tilt to forward tilt, then back again
- heavy canard cover
- modify and add to the featherlite cowling
So we just re-weighed our bird over the weekend and ended up at 1220 lbs. Having done our original W&B about 2 years ago now, we've changed a few things around, but I'm not sure what got us from 1185 to 1220. The major culprit is likely the fact that we used uncalibrated scales from a local race car enthusiast the 1st time, and recently calibrated scales from an A&P the 2nd time. We did build and install all new engine baffling, but we used aluminum ... not lead!! Also, at the 1st weigh-in we had never put fuel in. For the 2nd weigh-in, I had just drained all the fuel via the gascolator. Maybe there's more unusable than planned ... hmmm.
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