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  #1  
Old 12-23-2010, 07:02 PM
Buly Buly is offline
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Default NavMonster shut down

Some of you may know about NavMonster flight planning web site. It was very easy to use, free and liked by many pilots. It is no more. FlightPrep threatened them with a law suit, since they had the patent on online flight planning. They also went after AirNav and others for the same reason. Like somebody said: I should have patented internet porn . There is a new petition if you like to sign
or air your opinion:
http://www.boycottflightprep.com/
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  #2  
Old 12-23-2010, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

I filed for a patent on ones and zeroes many years ago but was unsuccessful.

I do have one patent that gets used a lot. Actually. I don't own the patent, I just invented it.
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  #3  
Old 12-23-2010, 10:30 PM
Marc Oppelt Marc Oppelt is offline
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Greedy bastards. How can you have a monopoly on 'online' anything? This country has far too many lawyers.
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Oppelt View Post
Greedy bastards. How can you have a monopoly on 'online' anything? This country has far too many lawyers.
Okay .... Devil's advocate here.
Let me tell you how it works.

Somebody comes up with an Idea ...... but nobody can figure out how to do it. Now some 'think outside the box' guy comes along and says 'I think I can figure it out' and he does.

Next someone says we need to protect this intellectual property and a patent is applied for. In the process of of applying for your patent, all of your code is published online.

Now another company comes along and wants to do a similar thing ...... but it's hard to do .... and they are under pressure to deliver so ........ search the internet (of course.) Lo and behold a site comes up that has the exact code you need so you copy it ....... from USPTO.gov.

That's what happened with my software. They went so far as to copy the comments in my code. It's a very large company and they are throwing a ton of money at lawyers trying to break the patent.

I can see both sides but that doesn't mean it applies to this case.
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  #5  
Old 12-24-2010, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Can't they just move offshore?
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2010, 01:00 AM
Marc Oppelt Marc Oppelt is offline
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Hmmm.. Educational. I guess that makes sense

Why in the hell does the patent office make you publish your code online? You have absolutely NO chance of keeping what amounts to a trade secret after that.

I can certainly see the case for intellectual property rights, but having said that - in this day and age I should think you could expect to be copied. Your edge, and thus your market share in whatever market there is for your idea, would be determined by your ingenuity, experience, your ongoing development...and your ability to stay ahead of the competition because you thought of it first.

Last edited by Marc Oppelt : 12-24-2010 at 02:35 AM.
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:08 AM
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

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Originally Posted by Marc Oppelt View Post
- in this day and age I should think you could expect to be copied.
Okay, let's put it in perspective:
A guy who runs a non-profit newsletter online that infringes on a patent -
Should they be the subject of a lawsuit?

Microsoft sees the Idea and feels they have a huge market for it -
Should they be the subject of a lawsuit?

It's an interesting mix out there. One company actually put up a $50,000 reward for any hacker that could discredit my patent. 50K would go a long way towards building my plane.
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  #8  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:13 AM
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Exclamation Re: NavMonster shut down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Oppelt View Post
Greedy bastards. How can you have a monopoly on 'online' anything? This country has far too many lawyers.

Marc,

IMAO, blaming lawyers for lawsuit abuse/lawsuits you don't like is akin to blaming guns for murder or doctors for illness.

Yes, while a handful of attorney's my exploit issues (something that can be said for most industry, including medicine and gun use), most attorneys are working for someone elses interest. That is their exact purpose. For every legal issue which you disagree there is an attorney advocating the opinion you do agree with.

Again, In My Arrogant Opinion, if you really want to find blame, look to the juries who have been so stupid/misguided/pliable as to rule against a company when it was proven in court that the conmpanies vacuum pump did NOT fail. Ignorant folks will often cite the McDonalds coffee spill case. Well, I would urge you to read the case and not just rely on the misrepresentations of the media. It may suprise you.

OH, that's right, if you blame juries it would be, well, kinda like blaming yourself...since juries are made of of folks (those so pliable to have no opinions that would have them struck).

While you may think we have too many lawyers, which may be true, we obviously have a system that can support it. Much of the stuff is very mundane....until it happens to you...or it makes the media.

Yes, I do take exception to the lazy thinking that makes lawyer bashing so easy for many. I know you to be more thoughtful than this.

While I am not in the same league, I am proud to be a lawyer, as I am certain Thomas Jefferson, Abe Lincoln and many others of note were. (yeah, I know, Bill Clinton and Chairman Obama too....but that would quickly digress into a political debate and this is not the proper forum and I have no excuse for eitehr....even though I must admit, Obama has made me appreicate Bill Clinton a bit)

I will concede that this may not be the forum for this sort of discussion, but I would be remiss if I allowed such commentary to go completely unchallanged. And, of course, I will fight to the death (as a lawyer or otherwise) for your right to be wrong. ;-).

Build on.

Remember, 98% of the lawyers make the other 2% of us look bad.
There are only three lawyer jokes; the rest or true stories....
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Last edited by CBarber : 12-24-2010 at 11:19 AM.
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  #9  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Rather than use the patent office, would it not work to do this instead?

Place all documents into an envelope, seal it and have a notary sign across the seal. Then mail it to yourself and never open it. Later on, if problems arise, have the judge open it. The postage seal carries a date. The date shows who had the idea first.

just my 2˘
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  #10  
Old 12-24-2010, 12:56 PM
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CBarber CBarber is offline
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

I think one of several problems with the envelope idea is "notice".

You would be inviting law suits since before the envelope was opened no one would even know what the idea you were protecting is and may have to resort to court action to even find out.

In the extreme example, would no one ever invent anything ever again just in case that whatever it is they invented may turn out to be the exact thing contained in your envelope.

FWIW
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  #11  
Old 12-24-2010, 02:34 PM
Marc Oppelt Marc Oppelt is offline
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
Marc,
IMAO, blaming lawyers for lawsuit abuse/lawsuits you don't like is akin to blaming guns for murder or doctors for illness.
Yes, guns don't kill people...uh...people do. But the gun certainly helps, doesn't it? Can't kill too many people just by pointing your finger at them and yelling BANG!. There are too many guns out there and they need better regulation (just like lawyers). Hell, I've got 5 or 6 guns myself. But seriously... just look at whats happening in Juarez.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
Yes, while a handful of attorney's my exploit issues (something that can be said for most industry, including medicine and gun use), most attorneys are working for someone elses interest. That is their exact purpose.
That depends on how you define exploitation. A lawyer's definition would probably be pretty narrow. If you zoom out and look at how things in this country have degenerated in the last 20-30 years since colleges started churning out more lawyers than doctors it's not that difficult to see what a detriment they have been.
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Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
For every legal issue which you disagree there is an attorney advocating the opinion you do agree with.
Exactly my point - too damn many of them. They get hungry like everybody else, and encourage people to engage in all sorts of goofy legal actions that end up being good for the lawyers, judges, clerks and all the other parasites who feed off the legal system...and not so good for society at large. Nobody cares about the common good anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
Again, In My Arrogant Opinion, if you really want to find blame, look to the juries who have been so stupid/misguided/pliable as to rule against a company when it was proven in court that the conmpanies vacuum pump did NOT fail. Ignorant folks will often cite the McDonalds coffee spill case. Well, I would urge you to read the case and not just rely on the misrepresentations of the media. It may suprise you.
Of course some blame lies with the juries...because for the most part, anybody that's on the ball finds a way to get out of jury duty. Who are you left with? Probably more alien abductees than rocket scientists. Which makes it easy for some slick-talkin' lawyer to convince said jury of just about anything. And yes, I do blame myself somewhat - I always find a way out of jury duty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
While you may think we have too many lawyers, which may be true, we obviously have a system that can support it. Much of the stuff is very mundane....until it happens to you...or it makes the media.

Yes, I do take exception to the lazy thinking that makes lawyer bashing so easy for many. I know you to be more thoughtful than this.
My opinions are based on personal experiences...specifically a child custody/abuse case involving law enforcement, CPS, DSHS, my X and her new husband, my two children, the husband's two children, and NINE fkkng lawyers...one of which I was forced to hire. The whole thing turned into a circus. All these lawyers were like a bunch of sharks chewing on a dead whale...they dorked around and debated every little thing they could at $250/hr for days on end, and dredged up all manner of personal dirt to fling back and forth. In the end the outcome was abysmal for most everybody involved...except the lawyers.

I would have been more than happy to stand them all up against the wall, point my finger at 'em and yell BANG!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
While I am not in the same league, I am proud to be a lawyer, as I am certain Thomas Jefferson, Abe Lincoln and many others of note were.
Yes many others of note were...but not in modern times. Comparing those guys to a modern day lawyer is like comparing a Model-T Ford to a Pontiac Aztec
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
Christopher Barber
Attorney and Counselor at Law
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Ok, so your area of law practice is actually something that people need. Good on you for not being one of the sleazebags. Besides that, you're building (or maybe flying) a canard airplane...so you must be OK. No "up against the wall" for you.

Last edited by Marc Oppelt : 12-24-2010 at 02:54 PM.
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2010, 02:51 PM
Marc Oppelt Marc Oppelt is offline
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMann View Post
Okay, let's put it in perspective:
A guy who runs a non-profit newsletter online that infringes on a patent -
Should they be the subject of a lawsuit?

Microsoft sees the Idea and feels they have a huge market for it -
Should they be the subject of a lawsuit?

It's an interesting mix out there. One company actually put up a $50,000 reward for any hacker that could discredit my patent. 50K would go a long way towards building my plane.
Yeah, I agree the copying is not ethical...but these are the times we live in. Now that every Tom, Dick & Harry, not to mention Chang, Anatoly, Kahn and Hammib know computer code...what can you expect?
[Having said that...I pirate stuff for my own personal use all the time. What can I say...I'm just a sinner. Up against the wall for me...]

To answer your question...I would think that the subject of a lawsuit should be someone who is stealing your idea with the intention to profit from it. I wouldn't want to go up against Microsoft. That would be like a squirrel trying to stare down a freight train.

And speaking of Microsoft...here's a little poetic justice for ya:

http://www.komonews.com/news/tech/112354399.html

Last edited by Marc Oppelt : 12-24-2010 at 06:05 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-24-2010, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Ethics, Guns, Philosophy, and Lawyers. (Last 6 posts. Nothing on the topic. We have the "Just Plain....Thread for this stuff. Yeah, I know, it's kinda related in that "degrees of Bacon" sort of way. But not really.)

How 'bout that NavMonster?
I personally will miss it, even though I was just introduced to it a few months ago by Buly. It was one of the most friendly tools I've come across. I'm seeing blow-back all over the Net on this subject. I'm wondering if FlightPlan is thinking they may have opened Pandora's Box?

Truly annoyed at evolution......
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  #14  
Old 12-25-2010, 02:19 AM
Marc Oppelt Marc Oppelt is offline
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Schneider View Post
Ethics, Guns, Philosophy, and Lawyers. (Last 6 posts. Nothing on the topic. We have the "Just Plain....Thread for this stuff.
See...it was fun till you came along and pissed on it. Now no more posts...and no more fun.

Hmmph.
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  #15  
Old 12-25-2010, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: NavMonster shut down

Don't worry Marc, I will likely respond on a chat thread...or privately.

Feel free to try to convince me....uh, really, good luck with that

Merry Christmas all y'all.

Chris
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