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  #1  
Old 12-01-2013, 01:39 PM
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Default Parachutes & Flight Testing

How many Canard Pilots even own a parachute?
..... wore a parachute during flight testing?
Have an exit plan?

My Dad was a Hell Diver pilot in the Navy in WWII. One of the stories he told me involved a Navy Fighter pilot who became a local sportscaster after the war here in Omaha (Joe Patrick.)
He stated "I would never trust my life to a parachute. I'll ride the plane down before I would ever get out."
One day during a skirmish, the entire back end of the plane was blown off and Joe bailed out.

His remark afterward was "It was so easy!"

Point being, if you are testing aft CG, first flight, vNe, Flutter and the like and do not have a parachute, you will by default be "riding the plane down."
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2013, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

A few of the guys over on the Van's forum use a parachute for their initial flight testing. Every so often one will come up for sale and get snapped up,,,around the $1000 mark. Could be the same lot of parachutes just making the rounds. I don't plan on using one. My initial testing will be out of KOZW, a 100' by 5002' runway with plenty of flat farm land in the area. Using a short field technique, I will gain altitude rapidly after takeoff and move from the CL of the runway over to upwind leg while climbing at Vx. Gives me a little distance from the runway in case I need to make it back to the runway and not stall a wing in a steep turn,,,,,,and that opens up a whole 'nother debate.
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:13 AM
Marc Oppelt Marc Oppelt is offline
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

But Tom...what about that big meat grinder on the back end of the plane?

Edit: Duh! Stupid me...the answer is obvious. Exploding prop bolts.
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

Your supposed to turn the meat grinder off before you jump if you can. I have a forward hinge canopy. I doubt if a parachute would do me any good could not get out even if I wanted to. I am going to be flying out of an airport with a 8,000 ft plus runway. It is out in the country with lots of farms and desert surrounding it. I would rather try and land than jump out I spent to much time building the thing to jump out. Steve build on
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:37 AM
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

I hear you Steve. If that was an option, I would stay with it.
An in-flight fire with an undercast at night over the rockies, I'd be looking for plan 'B'.

Seriously, if you get into a deep stall while doing testing (like we saw in April, 2010) then even you could get out. (I have a rear hinged canopy on purpose.)

I plan on wearing one throughout my flight testing. I don't know if you can really test things such as flutter, vNe and rear CG without one (more than once that is.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Oppelt View Post
But Tom...what about that big meat grinder on the back end of the plane?
Hitting the prop ??? Not all that convinced that's an issue as long as you don't stand up in the seat and deploy. You are moving at the same speed as the plane so it becomes a matter of gravity and drag once you separate.

After many an exit from a Cessna 182, I can't say that I ever came close to hitting the tail. I sent a few pair of sunglasses over the tail, but nothing else got close.
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Old 12-02-2013, 03:48 PM
argoldman argoldman is offline
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

Not a jumper myself,

however I think that it requires a certain amount of altitude, above the ground, to deploy the chute and obtain canopy terminal velocity. Soooo it would seem that, depending on the climb rate of the aircraft, that the length of the runway may be immaterial if the plane can't climb to that altitude before the "Cough Cough".

T, How do you "jump out of an EZ type without standing on the seat?-- (hell, I can't even get ino or out of it, on the ground without stepping on that part) perhaps invert and just let go.

Yes you are moving at the same speed as the aircraft and gravity and drag will be the same on both, until you leave the aircraft. your body will present a greater "frontal area" to the air stream, and depending on what the aircraft is doing, gravity may have a different effect on it (ie continuing to fly and defy gravity) as your bod goes downward from whatever position it was when you left. You will probably be going toward terra firma at a higher rate than the gliding aircraft (again depending on what it is doing. Your bod with it's larger frontal area will decelerate faster than the aircraft thus putting you lower and slower than the back parts to be possibly hit in the upside of whatever is hanging out.

My guess is, and again I am not a jumper (it's that yellow streak that follows me), that when you depart the C182 or whatever you don't just jump out of the open door but you hang on the strut and then let go. When you exit the aircraft, your bod (according to the videos that I have seen) is at or slightly below the tail feathers and as soon as you depart, gravity works on you, but not on the plane and you clear.

The P-38 with it's horizontal stabilizer between the two rudders (taillets), from what I understand, had a problem with bail outs and that structure. I have heard that the solution was explosive bolts to separate the tail and try to prevent the Sleepy Hollow effect (headless airmen).

If you are in a deep stall, with little forward movement, the forward hinged canopy would seem to be of little help (other than looking very snarky)

Of course, the prop itself would not be a problem if 1, it were a 2 blade and you were able to stop it horizontally or 2 it were a 3 blade and you stopped it in such a way that the two upper blades were at 10 & 2 oclock and you were a good aim as you sailed out of the aircraft,

Of course the prop may not be a concern if on bailout, from the front seat you found yourself in the back seat.

All of this is just idle conjecture... Has anybody on this list, or anywhere ever bailed out of an EZ type successfully????



Interesting discussions, this
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

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Originally Posted by argoldman View Post
My guess is, and again I am not a jumper (it's that yellow streak that follows me), that when you depart the C182 or whatever you don't just jump out of the open door but you hang on the strut and then let go. When you exit the aircraft, your bod (according to the videos that I have seen) is at or slightly below the tail feathers and as soon as you depart, gravity works on you, but not on the plane and you clear.
Good question. Here's an actual experience that I had. I was working as a jumpmaster and had just put out the last student (Cessna 182.) I was going to jump and the pilot had turned to put me over the exit point. As we got closer he started to climb abruptly. As we came over the top, I floated off the floor from my kneeling position. He kicked the right rudder and I was now outside the plane.

I tucked up in a ball and after my first rotation, I looked over and to my surprise, I was still looking through the open door of the airplane at the pilot (who was grinning ear-to-ear.)

i.e. I was still traveling with the plane at a forward speed of around 100kts. As gravity took hold, I started falling below the plane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by argoldman View Post
Has anybody on this list, or anywhere ever bailed out of an EZ type successfully
A better question might be "Does anybody on the list own a parachute?"
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  #8  
Old 12-02-2013, 06:31 PM
Marc Oppelt Marc Oppelt is offline
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMann View Post
A better question might be "Does anybody on the list own a parachute?"
No, that's a hobby I don't intend to take up until I'm in my 80s.
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  #9  
Old 12-02-2013, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Oppelt View Post
No, that's a hobby I don't intend to take up until I'm in my 80s.
Ahhh .... but it may help you reach 80.
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:45 PM
Marc Oppelt Marc Oppelt is offline
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

And whats with the fear of deep stall. Wouldn't that be fairly easy to cure with a little forethought?

Say for example you were going to do flight testing at aft CG. And you thought ahead and had 30 or 40 lbs of lead shot bags in the back seat, with a piece of line tied on each of them so if necessary...you could grab that line and drag em up over your shoulder and into your lap
(ouch )

If you wanted to get real creative, you could even rig up some way to drag them up in the nose. Maybe a small pulley mounted up in the nose with a line thru it, and you clip the weight on the line and drag it up. My nose has enough room to do that, with the hanging pedals.

I dunno. Seems like it can't be that hard to figure out how to shift enough weight forward to get the plane out of falling leaf mode. If not, I guess it's just to strap in tight, cross your fingers, and put your faith in...Temperfoam.
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  #11  
Old 12-02-2013, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

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Originally Posted by Marc Oppelt View Post
If not, I guess it's just to strap in tight, cross your fingers, and put your faith in...Temperfoam.
Or just get out.

It just seems prudent.
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

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Originally Posted by TMann View Post
Good question. Here's an actual experience that I had. I was working as a jumpmaster and had just put out the last student (Cessna 182.) I was going to jump and the pilot had turned to put me over the exit point. As we got closer he started to climb abruptly. As we came over the top, I floated off the floor from my kneeling position. He kicked the right rudder and I was now outside the plane.

I tucked up in a ball and after my first rotation, I looked over and to my surprise, I was still looking through the open door of the airplane at the pilot (who was grinning ear-to-ear.)

i.e. I was still traveling with the plane at a forward speed of around 100kts. As gravity took hold, I started falling below the plane.
Wow, that doesn't seem safe at all. I think what you described is putting the plane into a spin to dump the human cargo. Can't see how that could go wrong.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with my flight instructor. My instructor has been flying since the mid 1950’s (read old not bold pilot) and used to fly and instruct competitive aerobatics. He owned a T6, a couple Pitts and a Chipmunk over his flying career, so he has had his share of time flying at unusual attitudes. So we are flying along and we hear over the radio “Jumpers, Jumpers, Jumpers and the location.” So I asked him if he has ever done any sky diving. His response, “No, that’s just crazy.”
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

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Wow, that doesn't seem safe at all. I think what you described is putting the plane into a spin to dump the human cargo.
Oh we had a way to get back.

When you are the last guy out of a 4-way you motion for a 5 degree correction to the left.

With three guys outside they tend to cut off airflow to the tail on the right side. The 5 degree correction to the left (usually done with the rudder) cuts off the airflow to the other side of the tail and the plane departs. We just let go and let him solve that one on his own.

Paybacks are hell.
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  #14  
Old 12-03-2013, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: Parachutes & Flight Testing

Its a thread drift but I remember reading the news letter where Nat did deep stall testing using a moveable lead weight inside a long 4" PVC tube that passed through the seat back and he had some form of cranking mechanism in order to move it back to front in case he got into one.
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