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  #31  
Old 03-10-2014, 01:08 AM
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David Clifford David Clifford is offline
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

Is that fuel system per plans or just something the builder came up with? Again just my 2 cents but I see a lot of areas for improvement safety wise. My guess is that those tubes with the hoses worm clamped on are not even beaded. Those types of lawn mower style fuel delivery systems are more prone to developing leaks than using standard aviation practices. You may want to consider replacing them with AN fittings and custom made aviation grade flexible fuel lines.
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  #32  
Old 03-10-2014, 09:43 AM
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Is that fuel system per plans or just something the builder came up with?
Ah yes, so you are seeing my pain with this arrangement.
Who knows the answer to that one. I cannot imagine flying this arrangement which is why I won't.

I was a little surprised to find that the tank was all glass. No foam whatsoever, not even the partitions. You may notice that the partitions indicate that the front skin of the tank had pulled away from them.

The new sump will have aluminum hard-points for every penetration point. Each will be drilled and tapped to accept AN fittings and then aluminum tubing for the rest of it.

It should be a big improvement.
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I hope you'll show pictures of what you finally do.
You bet I will.
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  #33  
Old 03-10-2014, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

I like your plan Tom. Didn't want to come across in a insulting tone.
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  #34  
Old 03-10-2014, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

No problem Dave. It's all good.
I'm just happy to have some agreement on the merits of the original installation. The Velocity guys that are actively posting on the VBOA forum thing the single sump design is golden. I'd like to see them pitch that argument to Burt & Mike.
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  #35  
Old 03-10-2014, 05:12 PM
PrimeIsFine PrimeIsFine is offline
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

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The new sump will have aluminum hard-points for every penetration point. Each will be drilled and tapped to accept AN fittings and then aluminum tubing for the rest of it.
I like this much better than the previous work.
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  #36  
Old 03-10-2014, 05:48 PM
argoldman argoldman is offline
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

Just a couple of thoughts on the existing installation (or removed installation)

1. can that fuel filter.. it is a glassers nightmare-- very little surface area More than one aircraft has been rendered asunder by that item.

2. The reason that the fuel intake tube is short of the bottom of the sump is actually a good idea. What it creates is a non fuel-intake accessible area of the sump which acts as a last chance water and sediment trap (kinda like a built-in gascolator). I assume that there is a drain at the bottom of it to enable purging the tank.

I think that through fittings being tapped aluminum is a good idea. However on the inside of the tank, you will need to have fittings (AN, most likely) to continue the tubes to their destinations. Each one of these will have a nut on it which cannot be inspected. In the best case, if one loosens (vibration) and the sump is full, there should be no problem, however if you, for some reason, start to use the fuel out of the sump, with no replacement-- (almost running out of fuel but not quite--)you will only suck fuel to the level of that joint (think of drinking through a straw with a small hole in it just at the level of the top of your beer) and the first indication of the loosening (assuming that the seal of the fitting is compromised) will be an engine starvation scenario.

I can see no way of inspecting the fittings once the tank is sealed. When I built my sump, and wing tank vents I ran into that same conundrum and decided to goober a lot of flox on a very roughened tubing for the piercing. Of course doing this necessitates support of the tubing as it exits the tanks.

As a point of information (mine). Many people are recommending not venting the sump to the outside, or not venting it at all, as you suggest (with the exception of the purgification check valve). WHY???

If the sump tank is kept at the same pressure as the tank(s) through a vent manifold system, why isolate it?
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  #37  
Old 03-10-2014, 06:03 PM
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1. can that fuel filter.. it is a glassers nightmare-- very little surface area More than one aircraft has been rendered asunder by that item.
Replacing that with a Andair gascolator.
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Originally Posted by argoldman View Post
I assume that there is a drain at the bottom of it to enable purging the tank.
That would be at the other end of the black tube plumbed to the bottom of the sump. I'll do the same sort of thing only much shorter.
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I think that through fittings being tapped aluminum is a good idea. However on the inside of the tank, you will need to have fittings (AN, most likely) to continue the tubes to their destinations.
Why would I need a tube inside the tank? The pickup will be through a hard-point located near the bottom of the sump. There is no advantage to running the pickup in through the top.
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Originally Posted by argoldman View Post
As a point of information (mine). Many people are recommending not venting the sump to the outside, or not venting it at all, as you suggest (with the exception of the purgification check valve). WHY???
You only need to vent the air out of the sump. As the fuel is pumped out of the sump it has more draw on the source tank than gravity alone.
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  #38  
Old 03-11-2014, 12:29 AM
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

Tom:

I don't understand why you are doing this??? You were working on a Longez the coolest plane ever designed and you traded for a Velocity one of the un coolest canard designs. Not trying to be insulting just wanted to know?? I built a Longez back in the 80's I wish I would have never sold it. STeve build on
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  #39  
Old 03-11-2014, 01:59 AM
tspear tspear is offline
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

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Tom:

I don't understand why you are doing this??? You were working on a Longez the coolest plane ever designed and you traded for a Velocity one of the un coolest canard designs. Not trying to be insulting just wanted to know?? I built a Longez back in the 80's I wish I would have never sold it. STeve build on

Tom,

Answered this on the first page. He wants to start flying a canard sooner then later. The LongEZ still in the works, just tired of flying a Piper Arrow.

Tim
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  #40  
Old 03-11-2014, 02:01 AM
tspear tspear is offline
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

Tom,

What issue are you trying to solve with left, right sump areas?
Also, instead of having a vent with a check valve in the cabin, why not in the engine compartment? It will always be rather warm and toasty there.

Tim
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  #41  
Old 03-11-2014, 09:28 AM
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Tom:
I don't understand why you are doing this???
Steve, the Long-EZ is still in the works. The Velocity is a flying airplane that just needs a little attention to get it back in the air (plus it was free.)
I'd rather be flying it than be flying the Piper Arrow at $107/hour. I need to be building canard hours. Complex hours are okay but canard hours are what the insurance companies look at.
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What issue are you trying to solve with left, right sump areas?
The single sump does not feed from the tanks at the same rate. With a left/right/both selector, I can resolve that in-flight. The other issue is more of a safety factor. If you do happen to loose a fuel cap in flight, it is possible to have a fuel starvation issue with one tank full of fuel in a single sump configuration. Burt & Mike had a big write up on this a while back explaining why it's a accident waiting to happen.

The previous owner stated that on occasion he had to land and let the fuel levels even out and then continue. Not what I would consider a good solution.
You can't say that the aircraft has a 1100 nm range if you have to stop because you are basically running on one tank.
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Also, instead of having a vent with a check valve in the cabin, why not in the engine compartment? It will always be rather warm and toasty there.
I'll have to consider that one.
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  #42  
Old 03-11-2014, 11:12 AM
LEZ1675 LEZ1675 is offline
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

Tom, why not just convert this seemingly over-complicated system of sump tanks, vents, tubes, etc. to the basic LongEZ setup?

You are already going to convert to the fuel switch, so why not go all the way? I'm thinking that this sump tank is causing you a lot of trouble.

Also, I can't believe that the previous owner had trouble with one tank emptying before the other, and had to land to let the levels equalize, and then didn't fix it! Wow!

Just an idea.
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  #43  
Old 03-11-2014, 11:43 AM
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Tom, why not just convert this seemingly over-complicated system of sump tanks, vents, tubes, etc. to the basic LongEZ setup?
Basically because it is an additional 5 gallons of available fuel.
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  #44  
Old 03-11-2014, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

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Originally Posted by LEZ1675 View Post
Tom, why not just convert this seemingly over-complicated system of sump tanks, vents, tubes, etc. to the basic LongEZ setup?.
In addition to 5 gallons of fuel, eliminating the sump tank would have an effect on the CG of the plane that would have to be dealt with.
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  #45  
Old 03-11-2014, 12:53 PM
argoldman argoldman is offline
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Default Re: N951TM: Velocity Restoration

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Originally Posted by TMann View Post
Replacing that with a Andair gascolator.



Why would I need a tube inside the tank? The pickup will be through a hard-point located near the bottom of the sump. There is no advantage to running the pickup in through the top.

You only need to vent the air out of the sump. As the fuel is pumped out of the sump it has more draw on the source tank than gravity alone.
Taking the fuel directly out of the bottom of the sump may include any water or other grunge coming from the tanks, that is nearby thus obviating one of the advantages of the sump tank to act as a water/stuff gascolator, as it were. With your arrangement, where is the last best place that you can capture water. Grunge will be filtered by the filter of your choice.

To have the best of both worlds your bottom fitting can be of the stand-pipe variety with a drain in the bottom of the tank. You might, if this is a possibility for you, want to shape the bottom of the tank so that gravity pulls the water to the lowest part at which place there is a drain.

As to the air vent in the sump, after I sent my last message, I re-thought the situation and for the reasons you stated will make my sump ventless,(except for a "burp"(or other bodily sound) valve .
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